1 00:00:22,660 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:25,339 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:32,450 --> 00:00:29,730 episode number 384 the 31st of January 4 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:32,460 2016 Richard Saunders here with you from 5 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:34,530 Sydney Australia coming up on this 6 00:00:39,590 --> 00:00:36,510 week's show we're gonna kick off with 7 00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:39,600 joe alabaster some evidence please with 8 00:00:45,890 --> 00:00:42,480 Joe Joe's going to be talking to us 9 00:00:50,450 --> 00:00:45,900 about the importance of being on the 10 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:50,460 bone marrow register now I must admit 11 00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:51,989 this is something that hasn't really 12 00:00:56,719 --> 00:00:55,110 crossed my mind but it is now and 13 00:00:59,469 --> 00:00:56,729 certainly crossing my mind now and it 14 00:01:01,939 --> 00:00:59,479 may cross yours after listening to 15 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:01,949 evidence please with Joe alabaster 16 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:04,890 following that I catch up with a dear 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:07,140 old friend of mine somebody haven't seen 18 00:01:13,249 --> 00:01:09,930 for a while Professor Richard Wiseman 19 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:13,259 all the way from the UK now he's the man 20 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:16,500 who does the incredibly funny and 21 00:01:20,929 --> 00:01:19,590 interesting quirkology videos in fact i 22 00:01:23,390 --> 00:01:20,939 must say that during a mystery 23 00:01:25,969 --> 00:01:23,400 investigators live school show which i 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:25,979 do from time to time with that dr. H II 25 00:01:31,609 --> 00:01:28,530 and Maynard and some other people that 26 00:01:36,020 --> 00:01:31,619 we use a video from Professor Wiseman to 27 00:01:37,279 --> 00:01:36,030 help illustrate a point anyway I catch 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:37,289 up with rigid he's going to be talking 29 00:01:46,130 --> 00:01:42,329 about psychic dogs Maria's magical 30 00:01:51,010 --> 00:01:46,140 videos his uh his books he lights a lot 31 00:01:52,999 --> 00:01:51,020 of books and the study of dreams and 32 00:01:55,219 --> 00:01:53,009 interesting interview coming up a bit 33 00:01:56,569 --> 00:01:55,229 later on in the show then it's a week in 34 00:02:01,099 --> 00:01:56,579 signs from our friends at the Royal 35 00:02:03,529 --> 00:02:01,109 Institution of Australia w WR I a USGA 36 00:02:06,139 --> 00:02:03,539 you and if you're going to visit 37 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:06,149 Adelaide you should visit the Royal 38 00:02:12,559 --> 00:02:09,450 Institution I think you'd enjoy it then 39 00:02:14,660 --> 00:02:12,569 to round off the show Maynard's spooky 40 00:02:17,650 --> 00:02:14,670 action now we've been talking lately 41 00:02:20,090 --> 00:02:17,660 about discussing the chiropractic board 42 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:20,100 well may not finally does it he's going 43 00:02:26,630 --> 00:02:23,930 to be interviewing ken harvey what a 44 00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:26,640 legend he is in australian skeptical 45 00:02:33,770 --> 00:02:29,670 circles he gets things done he's the the 46 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:33,780 thorn in the side of many a quack I can 47 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:34,650 tell you 48 00:02:39,050 --> 00:02:36,540 he writes to government he prepares 49 00:02:40,729 --> 00:02:39,060 reports a man who doesn't sit back in 50 00:02:42,410 --> 00:02:40,739 his armchair I can promise you that but 51 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:42,420 just before we get stuck into the 52 00:02:48,770 --> 00:02:46,230 skeptic zone some news from Victoria 53 00:02:51,589 --> 00:02:48,780 from our friends in Victoria well it's a 54 00:02:53,539 --> 00:02:51,599 reminder for an upcoming event for the 55 00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:53,549 fifth year in a row the australia's 56 00:02:58,610 --> 00:02:56,220 favourite low-key grassroots skeptical 57 00:03:01,670 --> 00:02:58,620 event will be run at Ellie's inlet 58 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:01,680 community hall on saturday the 27th of 59 00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:04,560 februari this is the Surf Coast skeptic 60 00:03:09,619 --> 00:03:07,260 camp now it's a one-day event it's free 61 00:03:12,309 --> 00:03:09,629 and you'll be able to hear from local 62 00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:12,319 and visiting skeptics scientists and 63 00:03:17,869 --> 00:03:14,879 curious onlookers alike as they discuss 64 00:03:21,229 --> 00:03:17,879 topics from cults to alt med to local 65 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:21,239 mysteries and more the science on top 66 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:24,060 podcast will again be doing a live 67 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:26,280 recording sounds like a lot of fun lunch 68 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:29,489 will be provided but they need to know 69 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:32,010 numbers so the thing to do is to visit 70 00:03:39,530 --> 00:03:36,450 the eventbrite website and find the link 71 00:03:42,050 --> 00:03:39,540 or do a search for surf coast summer 72 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:42,060 skepta camp I'll put a link in the show 73 00:03:47,689 --> 00:03:44,340 notes so if you're in Victoria that's 74 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:47,699 the place to head on Saturday the 27th 75 00:03:52,789 --> 00:03:49,980 of very now just before I run downstairs 76 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:52,799 and find myself something to eat please 77 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:54,900 stay tuned right at the end of the show 78 00:04:00,140 --> 00:03:57,810 for a little announcement from me about 79 00:04:01,670 --> 00:04:00,150 one of our skeptics own family but now 80 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:01,680 it is time for me to run downstairs and 81 00:04:07,939 --> 00:04:04,280 I think I will look for a bagel with 82 00:04:09,830 --> 00:04:07,949 some cream cheese that sounds pretty 83 00:04:27,770 --> 00:04:09,840 damn good well I'm doing that I hope you 84 00:04:37,459 --> 00:04:30,390 what we want is some more evidence 85 00:04:37,469 --> 00:04:42,550 hello this is juror alabaster 86 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:47,750 f cancer cancer socks and F quack cancer 87 00:04:52,190 --> 00:04:50,610 treatments true medical science is 88 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:52,200 working hard to develop the best 89 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:54,210 treatments for various cancers it 90 00:04:58,850 --> 00:04:56,610 doesn't have all the answers but it does 91 00:05:00,590 --> 00:04:58,860 have the best answers and one of those 92 00:05:03,140 --> 00:05:00,600 answers for some people with blood 93 00:05:06,159 --> 00:05:03,150 cancers is to receive a bone marrow or 94 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:06,169 peripheral blood stem cell transplant 95 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:08,580 the Australian bone marrow donor 96 00:05:13,340 --> 00:05:11,190 registry keeps a database of Australians 97 00:05:15,530 --> 00:05:13,350 who have registered to be donors along 98 00:05:16,970 --> 00:05:15,540 with details of their tissue type in the 99 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:16,980 hope that they can find matches for 100 00:05:22,370 --> 00:05:20,010 people in need recipients include people 101 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:22,380 who have lymphoma and leukemia as well 102 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:24,150 as some genetic and autoimmune 103 00:05:29,690 --> 00:05:26,610 conditions such as forms of anemia and 104 00:05:32,420 --> 00:05:29,700 platelet disorders if you meet the 105 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:32,430 criteria registering to become a bone 106 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:34,500 marrow donor in Australia is as simple 107 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:36,930 as donating blood the Australian Red 108 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:38,910 Cross blood donation service are the 109 00:05:43,790 --> 00:05:40,710 agency who collect blood for tissue 110 00:05:45,710 --> 00:05:43,800 typing for the registry when booking an 111 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:45,720 appointment with the Red Cross simply 112 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:47,310 state that you'd like to join the bone 113 00:05:51,530 --> 00:05:49,770 marrow donation registry also and they 114 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:51,540 will arrange the paperwork and blood 115 00:05:58,100 --> 00:05:54,930 collection the registry accepts people 116 00:06:00,230 --> 00:05:58,110 between 18 and 45 years old and there 117 00:06:01,969 --> 00:06:00,240 are some exclusions as to who can donate 118 00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:01,979 bone marrow which listed on the 119 00:06:06,020 --> 00:06:04,020 australian bone marrow donor registries 120 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:06,030 website these are different to blood 121 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:08,490 donation so some people who are unable 122 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:10,830 to donate blood are still able to donate 123 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:13,440 bone marrow and some exclusion criteria 124 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:15,810 a temporary so if you're excluded now 125 00:06:20,750 --> 00:06:17,820 you may still be able to sign up in the 126 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:20,760 future tissue typing is quite 127 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:23,610 interesting it's also known as h la 128 00:06:29,750 --> 00:06:27,390 typing HLA being human leukocyte antigen 129 00:06:32,090 --> 00:06:29,760 HLA markers are one of the ways our 130 00:06:33,980 --> 00:06:32,100 immune system determines whether cells 131 00:06:36,469 --> 00:06:33,990 are foreign or our own so that the 132 00:06:38,690 --> 00:06:36,479 closer match our donors HLA markers are 133 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:38,700 to the recipients the less likely it is 134 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:40,620 that the recipients immune system will 135 00:06:45,890 --> 00:06:42,720 attack the donated cells and reject the 136 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:45,900 transplant one in three people needing a 137 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:47,940 bone marrow transplant have a fully 138 00:06:52,339 --> 00:06:49,710 matched family member who's able to 139 00:06:55,010 --> 00:06:52,349 donate to them for those who don't wait 140 00:06:58,430 --> 00:06:55,020 a family and unrelated donor searches by 141 00:07:00,290 --> 00:06:58,440 bone marrow registries are needed should 142 00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:00,300 you be a match for somebody which 143 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:02,220 involves further tissue typing via a 144 00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:04,889 blood sample to confirm the match there 145 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:07,470 are two ways to donate the best method 146 00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:09,240 is determined by the treating doctors 147 00:07:14,420 --> 00:07:12,000 involved you may be having visions of 148 00:07:16,490 --> 00:07:14,430 huge needles at this point they're used 149 00:07:18,649 --> 00:07:16,500 for collecting bone marrow directly from 150 00:07:21,469 --> 00:07:18,659 a donor's hip while the donors under a 151 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:21,479 general anesthetic post-operative pain 152 00:07:26,689 --> 00:07:23,460 is generally manage with paracetamol and 153 00:07:28,730 --> 00:07:26,699 recoveries often swift the removed bone 154 00:07:32,420 --> 00:07:28,740 marrow is replenished by the body within 155 00:07:34,460 --> 00:07:32,430 around four weeks the alternative method 156 00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:34,470 of donation which I wasn't aware of 157 00:07:40,010 --> 00:07:37,500 until recently it's to donate peripheral 158 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:40,020 blood stem cells this is done by 159 00:07:44,330 --> 00:07:41,970 injecting the donor over several days 160 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:44,340 with a hormone like treatment known as 161 00:07:49,339 --> 00:07:47,370 g-csf which stimulates increased 162 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:49,349 production of stem cells within bone 163 00:07:54,050 --> 00:07:51,330 marrow these cells are then released 164 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:54,060 into the blood stream donation itself 165 00:07:58,820 --> 00:07:56,250 involves spending three to four hours at 166 00:08:01,070 --> 00:07:58,830 an affair Asus center in which blood is 167 00:08:03,050 --> 00:08:01,080 taken from the donor sent through a cell 168 00:08:05,390 --> 00:08:03,060 separator machine which collects stem 169 00:08:08,209 --> 00:08:05,400 cells needed for transplant and then 170 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:08,219 returned to the donor the donated 171 00:08:12,499 --> 00:08:10,050 product is then processed and 172 00:08:14,059 --> 00:08:12,509 transplanted to the recipient healthy 173 00:08:16,219 --> 00:08:14,069 blood stem cells are given to the 174 00:08:18,110 --> 00:08:16,229 patient intravenously and they find 175 00:08:21,019 --> 00:08:18,120 their way into bones to become healthy 176 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:21,029 marrow transplantation of these healthy 177 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:22,770 blood stem cells means that the 178 00:08:26,260 --> 00:08:24,810 patient's bone marrow can produce new 179 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:26,270 red and white blood cells and platelets 180 00:08:31,850 --> 00:08:29,490 it also means that the patient can have 181 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:31,860 ongoing chemotherapy and/or radiotherapy 182 00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:36,450 as directed by their clinician now all 183 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:37,919 of this came to my attention recently 184 00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:39,930 because I saw a tweet on my timeline 185 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:42,060 from lymphoma Australia who are 186 00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:43,649 campaigning to find a donor for a 187 00:08:49,460 --> 00:08:47,310 specific person quote despite a 188 00:08:51,290 --> 00:08:49,470 worldwide search one Australian family 189 00:08:54,019 --> 00:08:51,300 is still looking for a bone marrow donor 190 00:08:56,569 --> 00:08:54,029 for their much-loved mum you can help if 191 00:08:58,940 --> 00:08:56,579 you're an Australian with UK heritage 192 00:09:01,310 --> 00:08:58,950 and eligible to join the Australian bone 193 00:09:03,470 --> 00:09:01,320 marrow registry please consider taking 194 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:03,480 the time as soon as you can to donate 195 00:09:07,819 --> 00:09:05,430 blood and ask to join the bone marrow 196 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:07,829 registry even if you aren't the match 197 00:09:10,579 --> 00:09:08,970 your blood will still be 198 00:09:14,449 --> 00:09:10,589 wonderful gift to another Australian in 199 00:09:16,490 --> 00:09:14,459 need and quote the next tweet on my 200 00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:16,500 timeline was from a friend who tweets a 201 00:09:20,689 --> 00:09:18,060 lot in support of evidence-based 202 00:09:23,449 --> 00:09:20,699 medicine and people campaigning against 203 00:09:26,509 --> 00:09:23,459 dangerous quackery stating that she was 204 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:26,519 the person who needed the transplant it 205 00:09:30,379 --> 00:09:28,170 was something of a shock she'd never be 206 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:30,389 in public about having lymphoma and I 207 00:09:34,790 --> 00:09:32,910 wanted to somehow help she spoke with me 208 00:09:36,590 --> 00:09:34,800 about peripheral blood stem cells other 209 00:09:39,439 --> 00:09:36,600 people she knew who are in need of 210 00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:39,449 transplants and her personal situation 211 00:09:44,119 --> 00:09:40,980 raising children and living with 212 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:44,129 lymphoma I really wanted this week's 213 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:45,930 report to not only give you some 214 00:09:49,759 --> 00:09:48,000 information on the bone marrow registry 215 00:09:51,889 --> 00:09:49,769 but to take you through my own 216 00:09:55,550 --> 00:09:51,899 experience of joining but unfortunately 217 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:55,560 I'm not eligible to donate maybe you or 218 00:09:59,329 --> 00:09:57,689 someone you know can though and the more 219 00:10:01,129 --> 00:09:59,339 people are on it the greater chance the 220 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:01,139 registry can find a match to save 221 00:10:06,050 --> 00:10:04,620 somebody's life for more information on 222 00:10:12,110 --> 00:10:06,060 the australian bone marrow donor 223 00:10:14,420 --> 00:10:12,120 registry you can visit WWE BMD rga you 224 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:14,430 and to line up an appointment to 225 00:10:22,179 --> 00:10:18,689 register via the red cross call 13 14 95 226 00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:22,189 and ask about joining the registry if 227 00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:24,120 you're one of our non-australian 228 00:10:28,579 --> 00:10:25,860 listeners and you're interested in 229 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:28,589 signing up googling bone marrow donation 230 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:29,970 should give you some leads on the 231 00:10:34,819 --> 00:10:31,889 agencies and procedures used in your 232 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:34,829 country several bone marrow donation 233 00:10:39,079 --> 00:10:37,170 registries worldwide including the 234 00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:39,089 Australian bone marrow donor registry 235 00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:41,040 have shared data bases with 236 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:43,680 de-identified donor information so 237 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:45,569 donors who sign up are able to help 238 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:49,110 others in need worldwide I hope that if 239 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:50,490 you're eligible to donate bone marrow 240 00:10:54,439 --> 00:10:52,529 and interested in doing so you'll 241 00:10:55,759 --> 00:10:54,449 consider joining a registry and that 242 00:10:57,889 --> 00:10:55,769 you'll let others know that there's 243 00:10:59,840 --> 00:10:57,899 something they can do if they want the 244 00:11:02,179 --> 00:10:59,850 chance to help people with blood cancers 245 00:11:06,829 --> 00:11:02,189 and other conditions who would benefit 246 00:11:08,809 --> 00:11:06,839 from a bone marrow transplant for more 247 00:11:11,569 --> 00:11:08,819 evidence please visit evidence please 248 00:11:15,379 --> 00:11:11,579 net found it on Facebook or find me on 249 00:11:17,569 --> 00:11:15,389 Twitter at Joe alabaster and if you sign 250 00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:17,579 up for the bone marrow registry send me 251 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:20,360 a tweet or drop me a line via Joe ever 252 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:22,790 please don't net so i can say thank you 253 00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:24,890 and let my friend know that the skeptic 254 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:26,870 community are signing up to help her and 255 00:11:49,180 --> 00:11:47,710 today this is dr. Karl Karl Christmas be 256 00:11:51,370 --> 00:11:49,190 proud to be a skeptic and you can find 257 00:12:14,190 --> 00:11:51,380 out more about me at dr. Kyle calm and 258 00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:18,970 and joining me now all the way from one 259 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:21,950 of the the city's I dream about visiting 260 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:24,170 or living in or being there any time I 261 00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:26,330 can get Edinburgh what a beautiful city 262 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:28,790 it is it's dr. richard wiseman hello 263 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:31,850 Richard hello great to talk with you we 264 00:12:36,610 --> 00:12:34,970 haven't caught up for a while just as a 265 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:36,620 general background for people who aren't 266 00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:38,390 familiar with your work what's what's 267 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:40,360 the richard wiseman story in a nutshell 268 00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:44,630 um well are you sitting comfortably it's 269 00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:49,040 a long story I was I was born yeah yeah 270 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:53,240 I'm one yes that's right um in 1992 no 271 00:12:57,550 --> 00:12:55,910 goodness oh yes yes it's I look a lot 272 00:12:59,440 --> 00:12:57,560 older than that obviously but it's just 273 00:13:01,090 --> 00:12:59,450 been a very stressful Oh stressful life 274 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:01,100 so you're a couple of years older than 275 00:13:07,390 --> 00:13:02,810 me that's good keep going that's correct 276 00:13:09,310 --> 00:13:07,400 that's right yes yes and so no no I'm a 277 00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:09,320 psychologist i started my working life 278 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:11,150 as a magician many years ago still 279 00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:13,310 heavily involved in magic i know lots of 280 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:15,440 magicians i was with one of them today 281 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:19,130 actually and then i also have carried 282 00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:20,930 out research into the paranormal that's 283 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:22,790 why my initial work was looking at from 284 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:25,490 a source skeptical perspective and then 285 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:27,410 looked at the psychology of illusion and 286 00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:30,490 then started looking at self-help and 287 00:13:35,890 --> 00:13:32,840 how you make yourself happier and 288 00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:35,900 luckier and so on and now i make youtube 289 00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:38,180 videos and I give talks and I do live 290 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:40,220 shows and I do a little bit television 291 00:13:45,340 --> 00:13:42,530 and i'm just generally a very very 292 00:13:46,690 --> 00:13:45,350 pleasant person well that we should in 293 00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:46,700 the interview right there richard 294 00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:48,020 wiseman thank you very much but before 295 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:50,720 we in the interview now folks if you 296 00:13:57,460 --> 00:13:54,410 haven't subscribed to richards youtube 297 00:14:02,290 --> 00:13:57,470 channel it's called quirkology qog 298 00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:02,300 quirkology a hue you i RK o el o gy and 299 00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:04,160 I noticed Richard I was just having a 300 00:14:08,740 --> 00:14:06,740 quick look through today I am a 301 00:14:11,890 --> 00:14:08,750 subscriber of course but i noticed i am 302 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:11,900 one of almost two million subscribers 303 00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:13,610 and that should tell you something folks 304 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:15,680 about how interesting the channel is and 305 00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:18,830 not too long ago you put out a new video 306 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:21,020 where you make a ball disappear you do 307 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:23,030 all sorts of very interesting tricks 308 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:24,830 and what's really great is you can watch 309 00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:26,510 half the video and see the ball or 310 00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:28,790 whatever it is disappear and you can 311 00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:31,220 pause it and replay the first part over 312 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:32,420 and over and over and over again until 313 00:14:38,890 --> 00:14:34,850 you go insane then if you let the video 314 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:38,900 play through you can see the secret and 315 00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:41,510 I must say that I pause this thing about 316 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:44,720 six times and I gave up and I had to 317 00:14:48,730 --> 00:14:46,130 look at the secret and I nearly fell off 318 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:48,740 my chair that is that your latest one 319 00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:50,870 where the ball disappears is surely one 320 00:14:56,830 --> 00:14:53,420 of the best that must have been many 321 00:14:57,940 --> 00:14:56,840 takes it was many many takes and so yes 322 00:14:59,530 --> 00:14:57,950 you're absolutely right about the two 323 00:15:00,850 --> 00:14:59,540 halves the video the first part is 324 00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:00,860 showing what magicians refer to as the 325 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:03,380 effect the magical bit and normally with 326 00:15:07,060 --> 00:15:05,510 magic normal do magicians you don't get 327 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:07,070 to go backstage and see what they refer 328 00:15:12,190 --> 00:15:09,410 to as the method but with the quad 329 00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:12,200 ecology tricks or which I invent the 330 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:14,270 idea is that the method is particularly 331 00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:16,310 intriguing and rather fun and also it's 332 00:15:19,450 --> 00:15:17,660 something a magician's would never use 333 00:15:22,030 --> 00:15:19,460 so i don't get shouted out by the way my 334 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:22,040 magical colleagues and yet the ball 335 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:24,650 video i think cousin otherwise it's 336 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:26,270 always the same i get i get everyone 337 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:27,710 together to film one of these videos i 338 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:30,170 say to them you know it'll be about an 339 00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:32,690 hour i had to do this and then I've got 340 00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:34,460 this one works I say it'll be about now 341 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:36,500 ignore what happened last time it'll be 342 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:39,860 about an hour and then about do about 343 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:42,410 three or four hours later when mr. 344 00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:44,090 goodwill has not only left the building 345 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:46,340 he's got taxi over the other side of 346 00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:49,310 town and everyone is just fed up with 347 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:51,470 hearing the sound of my voice as I 348 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:53,090 repeat the script again again or go 349 00:15:56,350 --> 00:15:54,260 through the actions again again 350 00:15:58,570 --> 00:15:56,360 eventually we get one take that works 351 00:15:59,860 --> 00:15:58,580 and that's the one you see so yeah I 352 00:16:02,830 --> 00:15:59,870 think that's probably about 30 takes 353 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:02,840 something like that but it's so much fun 354 00:16:07,390 --> 00:16:05,150 to kind of put this stuff out there and 355 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:07,400 i love the ball one um and hasn't a 356 00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:09,290 slightly weird genesis actually because 357 00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,430 i went on a holiday to Spain and i was 358 00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:15,440 went to a monkey park I wouldn't really 359 00:16:19,090 --> 00:16:16,880 normally go to a monkey park where 360 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:19,100 winter monkey park and just as I walked 361 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:20,390 through the gate to the monkey park a 362 00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:23,210 friend of mine sent me an email with a 363 00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:25,760 link to a clip of a an orangutang 364 00:16:30,220 --> 00:16:28,190 enjoying a magic trick oh yes I have 365 00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:30,230 seen that and that's brilliant yes yeah 366 00:16:34,090 --> 00:16:31,910 one wonderful yeah watching this as I 367 00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:34,100 walk into monkey park and I said to my 368 00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:35,660 frame on my friend back i said i'll go 369 00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:36,320 over to 370 00:16:40,690 --> 00:16:38,030 chimps who are the other side the park 371 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:40,700 gosh oh the magic trick now I go over 372 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:43,580 and boy the chimps are not interested in 373 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:44,810 my trick I don't know if they've seen 374 00:16:48,670 --> 00:16:46,610 other magicians I don't know if there's 375 00:16:50,860 --> 00:16:48,680 been local magic clubs been in the week 376 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:50,870 before they are not interested and no 377 00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:52,580 interest the chips and then I went over 378 00:16:55,810 --> 00:16:54,500 to the smaller monkeys are you allowed 379 00:16:57,550 --> 00:16:55,820 to play with you're not allowed to play 380 00:16:59,140 --> 00:16:57,560 with the chimps a very good reason but 381 00:17:01,420 --> 00:16:59,150 but the smaller monkeys you can play 382 00:17:02,860 --> 00:17:01,430 with and the smaller monkeys as soon as 383 00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:02,870 you held up a piece of fruit they took 384 00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:04,640 it away and ran away with it so I 385 00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:06,140 thought I could use this from magic 386 00:17:10,689 --> 00:17:08,180 trick so if you look on vine there's a 387 00:17:12,699 --> 00:17:10,699 tiny video of me making a grape 388 00:17:14,290 --> 00:17:12,709 disappear with the aid of one of these 389 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:14,300 monkeys because as soon as he sees the 390 00:17:19,689 --> 00:17:16,010 the piece of fruit it takes it from me 391 00:17:21,340 --> 00:17:19,699 and runs off so I made that but then 392 00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,350 that got me thinking about how you would 393 00:17:25,630 --> 00:17:23,600 actually make a ball disappear in the 394 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:25,640 position I was holding it which is 395 00:17:30,220 --> 00:17:28,250 monkey which is the genesis of the the 396 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:30,230 YouTube clip so so there we go lots of 397 00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:31,580 information you didn't want to know 398 00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:33,320 about the genesis of the vanishing red 399 00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:36,400 ball well it's what's fabulous is every 400 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:38,870 word regular intervals I don't know if 401 00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:41,090 you you have a decision that there every 402 00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:42,620 month or every six months or 3 30 403 00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:44,600 whatever the case may be but regularly 404 00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:47,390 you put up a new video where something 405 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:50,390 miraculous will happen and it gives the 406 00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:52,370 people like me the chance to try it and 407 00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:54,440 work it out to the best of our ability 408 00:18:00,640 --> 00:17:58,160 that one I thought of every possible 409 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:00,650 conceivable thing you are doing but but 410 00:18:06,670 --> 00:18:02,930 when I did I ruled out camera tricks as 411 00:18:08,110 --> 00:18:06,680 in funny editing shall I say yeah like 412 00:18:09,910 --> 00:18:08,120 that's the one thing we never knew we 413 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:09,920 never edit we will never use a camera 414 00:18:13,870 --> 00:18:12,050 tricks oh so what you're seeing is what 415 00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:13,880 you would see if you're standing exactly 416 00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:17,600 where the cameras yeah yes yeah and and 417 00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:18,830 we love the fact that it drives people 418 00:18:23,470 --> 00:18:21,590 mad so there's lots of magicians that 419 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:23,480 will just watch again again trying to 420 00:18:27,670 --> 00:18:25,130 work out the method that's the part of 421 00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:27,680 the fun of it and yeah but they are 422 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:29,720 incredibly hard to come up with because 423 00:18:33,850 --> 00:18:31,310 you know you've got to come up these 424 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:33,860 fresh ideas and then film it and so on 425 00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:36,050 but there's so much fun so yeah I hope 426 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:38,360 people enjoy their ecology videos well 427 00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:41,510 and it began with a wonderful one you 428 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:43,760 did with a card trick sitting at a table 429 00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:47,450 with the or a friend and we're all 430 00:18:49,910 --> 00:18:49,190 concentrating on the card trick which is 431 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,920 very interesting 432 00:18:53,090 --> 00:18:51,780 but unbeknownst to us all sorts of other 433 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:53,100 things are happening in the video I 434 00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:54,570 won't spoil it for people who haven't 435 00:19:01,790 --> 00:18:58,880 seen it but that's very famous video the 436 00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:01,800 yeah it's years ago now at three or four 437 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:03,750 years ago since that was put online and 438 00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:06,330 it's been copied which is what do they 439 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:08,580 say to sincere form of flattery when you 440 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:11,010 copy something yeah lots of people have 441 00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:12,450 done their own versions which is fine 442 00:19:16,340 --> 00:19:13,860 actually I mean that that's part of the 443 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:16,350 joy of YouTube is to see people sort of 444 00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:19,620 riffing on it and yeah one of the nicest 445 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:21,200 things that happen that went online 446 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:23,250 actually the original goes back a long 447 00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:25,650 way the original go back to was 2009 and 448 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:28,740 it went online and about I know about 449 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:30,300 two or three months later had an email 450 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:32,810 from teller out of penn & teller and 451 00:19:37,130 --> 00:19:35,910 Teller said we love this this video we 452 00:19:38,990 --> 00:19:37,140 would like to use it as sort of an 453 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:39,000 inspiration for a piece that we're going 454 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:40,650 to perform I said oh well that's great 455 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:43,410 and then next time I was in Vegas I went 456 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:45,570 to their live show and indeed every 457 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:47,370 night they do a piece which is based on 458 00:19:51,170 --> 00:19:49,710 the color changing card trick and so 459 00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:51,180 it's so lovely their thought that 460 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:53,100 started off in my head and then went on 461 00:19:57,530 --> 00:19:55,770 to YouTube then inspires or two of my 462 00:19:59,630 --> 00:19:57,540 heroes to do something amazing in Vegas 463 00:20:01,730 --> 00:19:59,640 every night so that the joy of YouTube 464 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:01,740 is you never know who's watching yes 465 00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:06,330 absolutely and you must get some 466 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,120 criticism and I let me use that as a 467 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:11,760 segue because what you're also known for 468 00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:14,310 although it's now retreating into the 469 00:20:21,740 --> 00:20:17,640 dark dim past now is a bit of a 470 00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:21,750 background folks in 1986 or the late 80s 471 00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:23,900 there were reports of a so-called 472 00:20:30,290 --> 00:20:27,020 telepathic dog in a place called 473 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:30,300 ramsbottom called JT I'm not making any 474 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:34,350 of this up and JT's owner that was under 475 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,890 the impression that JT knew when she was 476 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:39,840 returning home and would wait by the 477 00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:41,730 window even if she was miles away in 478 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:43,950 town or somewhere else or whatever the 479 00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:47,010 case may be and Rupert Sheldrake who a 480 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:48,870 lot of our listeners that he'll they'll 481 00:20:52,940 --> 00:20:50,760 know that name conducted a series of 482 00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:52,950 experiments with JT the dog and came to 483 00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,000 the conclusion that there was a 484 00:20:59,810 --> 00:20:57,600 telepathic connection and then you came 485 00:21:01,540 --> 00:20:59,820 along did your own experiments which 486 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:01,550 sort of indicated that there wasn't 487 00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:03,850 which and it's all on YouTube 488 00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:05,679 you can check this out i was just 489 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:07,750 refreshing my memory today and wow you 490 00:21:14,010 --> 00:21:11,650 look so young some of these videos i'm 491 00:21:17,730 --> 00:21:14,020 using filled a week ago Oh was it yet um 492 00:21:18,930 --> 00:21:17,740 and and I just before we can run e I was 493 00:21:21,570 --> 00:21:18,940 just having a quick chat to you and I 494 00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:21,580 was saying that Rupert Sheldrake I guess 495 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:23,320 he's still a bit sore about the fact 496 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:24,610 that you came along and had a look at 497 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,070 this because just in the last six months 498 00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:29,440 or so he with Pam smart the dog's owner 499 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:32,559 have put up a video basically whinging 500 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:34,570 as we say about the fact that you came 501 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:37,090 along and tried to debunk it and they 502 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:38,710 say in this video that you completely 503 00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:41,110 failed to to debunk the fact that this 504 00:21:46,649 --> 00:21:43,110 dog had telepathic magical powers that 505 00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:46,659 must have been an interesting time it 506 00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,480 was I mean it started off as you said me 507 00:21:52,409 --> 00:21:51,039 many years ago i seed struggling to 508 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:52,419 remember half of what happened now but 509 00:21:59,010 --> 00:21:55,990 it started off on the Paul McKenna world 510 00:22:02,430 --> 00:21:59,020 of the paranormal which was a TV show 511 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:02,440 over here big TV show and they had a 512 00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,320 footage from I think an Austrian 513 00:22:12,330 --> 00:22:07,360 television crew which had carried out an 514 00:22:15,149 --> 00:22:12,340 experiment with with JT and they only 515 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:15,159 had the footage where JT was going to 516 00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:17,500 the window as his owner which is Pam was 517 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:19,809 returning and then I was the source 518 00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:22,090 skeptic in the studio and said well the 519 00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:23,020 problem here is we don't know what's 520 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:24,190 happening the rest of the time maybe 521 00:22:28,620 --> 00:22:25,750 he's constantly going to the window and 522 00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:28,630 so Rupert who's investigating JT at the 523 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:30,880 time with Pam said why don't you come up 524 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:33,190 and conduct your own experiments and so 525 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:35,200 Matt Smith and I who's my research 526 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:38,530 assistant the time we drove up we did to 527 00:22:42,210 --> 00:22:40,510 experiment didn't think that some the 528 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:42,220 dog was psychic we then returned again 529 00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:43,510 did another two didn't think they're 530 00:22:48,210 --> 00:22:45,940 psychic and wrote that up and then 531 00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:48,220 Rupert sort of maintained that it was a 532 00:22:52,110 --> 00:22:49,990 statistical effect in there wasn't a 533 00:22:53,399 --> 00:22:52,120 sore directly observable big effect 534 00:22:55,620 --> 00:22:53,409 there was still something a bit odd 535 00:22:57,779 --> 00:22:55,630 about the dog's behavior and so 536 00:23:00,060 --> 00:22:57,789 criticize our work and then for the next 537 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:00,070 sort of five or six years or something 538 00:23:03,620 --> 00:23:01,510 like that the two of us have gone back 539 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:03,630 and forth with increasingly complicated 540 00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:06,070 papers about whether or not the dog is 541 00:23:09,659 --> 00:23:07,960 psychic and just to see sort of two 542 00:23:11,940 --> 00:23:09,669 grown men arguing about whether this 543 00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:11,950 very lovely dog unfortunately passed 544 00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:15,280 away now but was psychic is quite site 545 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:16,750 and he's all on the web if people want 546 00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:17,710 to get into it all those 547 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:20,140 bizarre out there I warn you now it's it 548 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:23,110 is complicated but you know weirdly I'm 549 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:25,690 kind of a fan of Rupert in in many ways 550 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:28,570 because what he is fantastic at doing is 551 00:23:32,730 --> 00:23:31,090 is doing experiments out in the real 552 00:23:34,289 --> 00:23:32,740 world that are relevant to people's 553 00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:34,299 lives and so whether it's the remote 554 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:36,580 detection staring or the dog work and 555 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:38,890 some his other work these carried out is 556 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:40,570 actually I think actually doing the 557 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:42,820 right sort of thing often I'm very 558 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:44,770 critical his methods but I do think is 559 00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:46,480 very creative guy in a very pleasant guy 560 00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:48,520 so it sort of Saturn's maybe that we've 561 00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:50,590 crossed swords so many sometimes because 562 00:23:54,899 --> 00:23:52,270 I could imagine in a different context 563 00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:54,909 would be very close friends but that's 564 00:23:59,039 --> 00:23:56,950 the way it going goes in science and if 565 00:24:02,279 --> 00:23:59,049 you want to read the material it is all 566 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:02,289 out there in gory detail you can decide 567 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:04,240 for yourselves whether or not that dog 568 00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:07,390 psychic oh well we can decide for 569 00:24:12,029 --> 00:24:09,820 ourselves and what a PD JT is no longer 570 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:12,039 with us maybe if we can get a pet 571 00:24:16,769 --> 00:24:15,370 psychic to a contact JT that would solve 572 00:24:18,570 --> 00:24:16,779 the prob their words that would clear it 573 00:24:20,909 --> 00:24:18,580 up we could ask JT directly are you 574 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:20,919 psyched light i I don't know the 575 00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:23,770 psychics contact animals I i I'm sure 576 00:24:29,789 --> 00:24:27,220 they do I well I I don't that's a very 577 00:24:31,649 --> 00:24:29,799 good question um yesterday channel dead 578 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:31,659 out maybe they do maybe they do oh we 579 00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,370 are there's a whole PhD thesis in there 580 00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:35,520 for someone not me no it's either I 581 00:24:39,779 --> 00:24:38,799 think that quite clear I don't know if 582 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:39,789 you've caught up with the fact that 583 00:24:43,529 --> 00:24:41,770 there's a university here in Wollongong 584 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:43,539 who just recently awarded a PhD to 585 00:24:49,049 --> 00:24:47,890 someone who wrote a thesis on extolling 586 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:49,059 the virtue of anti-vaccination 587 00:24:53,159 --> 00:24:51,610 conspiracy theories from from a point of 588 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:53,169 view of being in and evac so it's it's 589 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:54,970 mind boggling so maybe I can get a PhD 590 00:24:59,220 --> 00:24:56,710 at the woman got University of 591 00:25:02,789 --> 00:24:59,230 Wollongong I think a lot channeling Adam 592 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:02,799 ungentle and I think so yes no doubt now 593 00:25:06,029 --> 00:25:04,330 let's have a quick chat about some of 594 00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:06,039 your books of course you don't just do 595 00:25:10,169 --> 00:25:07,720 research papers you don't just do 596 00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:10,179 marvelous online videos you don't just 597 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:12,760 talk to psychic dogs you write books I 598 00:25:19,620 --> 00:25:16,480 do you do yes far too many silence a 599 00:25:21,779 --> 00:25:19,630 fatty not not me I owe you understand or 600 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:21,789 my publisher but others was say no 601 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:23,289 everyone I've written was the last one 602 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:25,510 I've just written ones coming out 603 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:27,730 towards the end of this year but the one 604 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:30,130 before that was called night school and 605 00:25:34,049 --> 00:25:31,720 all about the 606 00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:34,059 ients of sleep and dreaming which I love 607 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:36,460 I become absolutely fascinated know if I 608 00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:39,010 did you have an appt about that i think 609 00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:41,620 yes yes yeah that was the so there to 610 00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:43,659 sort of pathways into the book one was 611 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:45,280 that I used to suffer from night terrors 612 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:47,770 when I was an adult actually as unusual 613 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:49,510 I didn't have them as a kid had them as 614 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:51,850 an adult and people don't know that's 615 00:25:56,610 --> 00:25:54,970 where you sit up in bed you appear to be 616 00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,620 awake because your eyes are open but you 617 00:26:00,690 --> 00:25:58,480 you're not actually you're in them on 618 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:00,700 deepest forms asleep and you think 619 00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:02,470 there's some kind of weird entities some 620 00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:04,270 normally sort of demonic entity in the 621 00:26:10,529 --> 00:26:08,230 room and you scream out and what's sort 622 00:26:12,419 --> 00:26:10,539 of vaguely amusing about it is if you're 623 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:12,429 sleeping next to somebody else they 624 00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:13,990 genuinely wake up because you've just 625 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:16,809 screamed out so they wake up and they're 626 00:26:20,039 --> 00:26:18,370 knobs in full waking state and 627 00:26:21,779 --> 00:26:20,049 adrenaline going and heart beating and 628 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:21,789 then you just fall straight back to 629 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:24,400 sleep leaving them fully awake another 630 00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:27,490 of the next kind of hour or so so it's 631 00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:28,960 more terrifying for them in some ways 632 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:31,900 certainly more problematic for them than 633 00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:34,510 it is for the person suffering one so 634 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:35,500 did though they had those for a while 635 00:26:40,890 --> 00:26:37,690 and got fascinated by what was happening 636 00:26:42,510 --> 00:26:40,900 in my mind and and then turn part of it 637 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:42,520 was simply sleeping in the room that was 638 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:44,530 too hot and when she bring the 639 00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:45,850 temperature down in the room you don't 640 00:26:50,399 --> 00:26:47,830 have them quite so much so I now sleep 641 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:50,409 in essentially an ice box which is it's 642 00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:52,630 delightful for caroline has to sleep 643 00:26:59,039 --> 00:26:56,590 next to me so anyway that's what it so 644 00:27:02,669 --> 00:26:59,049 there's that and then around the same 645 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:02,679 time I was talking to an appt company 646 00:27:06,419 --> 00:27:04,690 I'd read some research about what's 647 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:06,429 called dream intrusion which is that 648 00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:07,809 when you dream although you're blind 649 00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:10,720 you're not deaf you can hear sounds and 650 00:27:14,909 --> 00:27:12,070 often you incorporate them into your 651 00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:14,919 dream so you may hear an alarm clock go 652 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:16,900 off and you hear it as church bells for 653 00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:18,850 example in your dreams are a common one 654 00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:21,039 and there was a little bit of research 655 00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:24,340 in 1970s very easy tarek work which 656 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:25,960 looked at what happened when you played 657 00:27:28,830 --> 00:27:27,520 in sounds to people when they were 658 00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:28,840 dreaming you know if that's Pleasant 659 00:27:32,430 --> 00:27:31,030 sounds or whatever it is anyway they 660 00:27:34,529 --> 00:27:32,440 found that that yes indeed you could 661 00:27:36,750 --> 00:27:34,539 influence people's dreams so we make it 662 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:36,760 that made an appt out of it we ask 663 00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:38,530 people to say on the app what time they 664 00:27:43,169 --> 00:27:41,679 wanted to wake up in the 45 minutes or 665 00:27:46,109 --> 00:27:43,179 so before you wake up you're almost 666 00:27:48,719 --> 00:27:46,119 certainly dreaming and so the app would 667 00:27:51,089 --> 00:27:48,729 quietly play in a soundscape of your 668 00:27:53,309 --> 00:27:51,099 choice so you could decide to go for a 669 00:27:54,929 --> 00:27:53,319 walk in the country you could go for a 670 00:27:56,819 --> 00:27:54,939 walk along the beach you could be 671 00:27:59,009 --> 00:27:56,829 attacked by zombies whatever you wanted 672 00:28:01,469 --> 00:27:59,019 the weather we have a soundscape for it 673 00:28:04,829 --> 00:28:01,479 and then in the morning oh and you did 674 00:28:07,139 --> 00:28:04,839 wake up the app would ask you to type in 675 00:28:10,049 --> 00:28:07,149 your dream and we collected millions of 676 00:28:12,299 --> 00:28:10,059 dream reports and also found that the 677 00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:12,309 soundscapes were indeed and in terms of 678 00:28:16,019 --> 00:28:14,169 the nature ones at least making people 679 00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,029 feel more relaxed and they were having 680 00:28:20,129 --> 00:28:18,399 less dreams that's interesting because 681 00:28:24,089 --> 00:28:20,139 often I'll fall asleep with the in bugs 682 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:24,099 in and I'm listening to the podcast or 683 00:28:29,069 --> 00:28:27,129 some radio show or something and if if I 684 00:28:30,629 --> 00:28:29,079 don't set the timer and the Vice 685 00:28:32,579 --> 00:28:30,639 switches itself off it'll often play 686 00:28:35,249 --> 00:28:32,589 right through the night and but it 687 00:28:41,099 --> 00:28:35,259 during the wee hours or not long before 688 00:28:43,009 --> 00:28:41,109 waking I distinctly remember the podcast 689 00:28:45,629 --> 00:28:43,019 or the people speaking being 690 00:28:48,539 --> 00:28:45,639 incorporated into the dream it's quite 691 00:28:49,949 --> 00:28:48,549 quite quite weird it is it is very weird 692 00:28:52,259 --> 00:28:49,959 and so if you were particularly light 693 00:28:53,639 --> 00:28:52,269 sleeper it's very likely to happen if 694 00:28:54,929 --> 00:28:53,649 people are struggling to sleep i 695 00:28:56,699 --> 00:28:54,939 obviously i wouldn't recommend your 696 00:28:59,519 --> 00:28:56,709 podcast because this will give anyone a 697 00:29:02,249 --> 00:28:59,529 muumuu is my stimulating conversation 698 00:29:04,229 --> 00:29:02,259 but there is that yeah we created some 699 00:29:06,029 --> 00:29:04,239 music which is free on YouTube which 700 00:29:08,369 --> 00:29:06,039 people can listen to very relaxing music 701 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:08,379 but also there's another podcast called 702 00:29:14,309 --> 00:29:10,569 I think sleep with me which is a guy 703 00:29:16,409 --> 00:29:14,319 just talking gibberish so it makes no 704 00:29:18,029 --> 00:29:16,419 sense at all I feel like I'm in 705 00:29:20,969 --> 00:29:18,039 conversation with me it makes no sense 706 00:29:22,709 --> 00:29:20,979 at all but as you because it's quite 707 00:29:24,689 --> 00:29:22,719 hard to try and make sense of it it's 708 00:29:26,309 --> 00:29:24,699 actually it does put you to sleep and 709 00:29:28,049 --> 00:29:26,319 it's been very effective many many 710 00:29:30,569 --> 00:29:28,059 download so i always recommend that to 711 00:29:32,909 --> 00:29:30,579 people and so yeah so I've become 712 00:29:35,429 --> 00:29:32,919 fascinated by by sleep and dreaming that 713 00:29:38,219 --> 00:29:35,439 well I try it myself although I I'm 714 00:29:39,689 --> 00:29:38,229 since I've started this process of 715 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:39,699 listening to something as I'm falling 716 00:29:45,779 --> 00:29:42,129 asleep I've got quite addicted to it I 717 00:29:48,659 --> 00:29:45,789 guess I and now if I if I'm in a quiet 718 00:29:50,729 --> 00:29:48,669 place with no noise of dead quiet in a 719 00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:50,739 hotel room or something like that it's 720 00:29:56,309 --> 00:29:54,369 it's to Erie it's the old case of people 721 00:29:58,670 --> 00:29:56,319 can sleep better if they hear the rain 722 00:30:00,350 --> 00:29:58,680 on the roof or something or the sea 723 00:30:02,690 --> 00:30:00,360 wind or something like that it's an 724 00:30:05,270 --> 00:30:02,700 interesting phenomenon that that's right 725 00:30:06,590 --> 00:30:05,280 i mean Sean saying repetitive and not 726 00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,600 too much of happening in there and then 727 00:30:11,930 --> 00:30:09,600 and so on so yeah so there you know we 728 00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:11,940 spend about a third of our lives asleep 729 00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:13,020 and about a quarter of that time 730 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:15,480 dreaming and we just don't think we turn 731 00:30:19,940 --> 00:30:18,330 off our minds and it just so isn't the 732 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:19,950 case i means always sleep science 733 00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:21,930 showing that you're in a different stage 734 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:23,940 of consciousness and that is absolutely 735 00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:25,410 vital for psychological and physical 736 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:28,320 well-being and yet because of what's 737 00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:30,090 happening with 24-hour media and the web 738 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:32,700 and so on with squeezing sleep time and 739 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:34,710 then and trans benders little time as 740 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:36,930 possible in bed to sleep particularly 741 00:30:40,790 --> 00:30:39,690 teenagers and kids and we really need to 742 00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:40,800 be doing the opposite we need to 743 00:30:44,780 --> 00:30:43,590 recognize that the sleep is in every 744 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:44,790 pretty much every animal in the world 745 00:30:51,710 --> 00:30:46,590 for a reason you know it plays a vital 746 00:30:54,050 --> 00:30:51,720 role in our lives absolutely now Richard 747 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:54,060 I understand that you're also um at 748 00:30:58,220 --> 00:30:56,610 least on the fringes somewhat involved 749 00:30:59,630 --> 00:30:58,230 with the good thinking society and our 750 00:31:01,400 --> 00:30:59,640 good friends at the good thinking 751 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:01,410 society Michael Marshall and Simon Singh 752 00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,110 that must be interesting it is 753 00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:06,240 interesting in fact the name the good 754 00:31:10,910 --> 00:31:09,150 thinking society is my idea is a Simon 755 00:31:12,020 --> 00:31:10,920 yes I'm came to me a few years ago and 756 00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:12,030 he said he's thinking of setting up a 757 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:14,670 charity and he had various ideas when 758 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:15,810 kick summer allies were about good 759 00:31:20,390 --> 00:31:17,130 thinking society and that's that's 760 00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:20,400 what's done and they're doing great work 761 00:31:26,030 --> 00:31:23,760 so yet mar she works with him they've 762 00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:26,040 done some sort of we work on and sort of 763 00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:30,300 homeopathy in the NHS and yet so great 764 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:32,880 to see you know it sort of speaks and 765 00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:34,700 I've seen this more and more actually 766 00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:37,470 across the world it speaks to the power 767 00:31:42,650 --> 00:31:40,590 of one or two people you know often the 768 00:31:44,870 --> 00:31:42,660 two of them are accomplishing more than 769 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:44,880 20 or 30 people in a bigger organization 770 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:46,650 just across the other side of town yeah 771 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:48,570 and it always reminds me of you know 772 00:31:53,330 --> 00:31:50,760 someone like Randy where you kind of 773 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:53,340 think it's it's just one guy you know 774 00:31:59,810 --> 00:31:56,370 he's not even especially tall oh it's 775 00:32:01,880 --> 00:31:59,820 much your guy but my goodness look at 776 00:32:04,220 --> 00:32:01,890 what he accomplished yo the I don't have 777 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:04,230 you seen the the honest liar documentary 778 00:32:10,670 --> 00:32:07,290 oh yes I I'm almost in it are you almost 779 00:32:11,710 --> 00:32:10,680 there they were filming a big section of 780 00:32:13,419 --> 00:32:11,720 that one 781 00:32:15,970 --> 00:32:13,429 during the amazing meeting and I was in 782 00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:15,980 a big conference with Randy and banachek 783 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:17,990 and some other people in my role as 784 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:19,370 being on the million-dollar committee 785 00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:21,650 and and out of the corner of my eye 786 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:23,960 there's this camera crew circling us 787 00:32:28,450 --> 00:32:26,450 like vultures and that that was the 788 00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:28,460 camera crew for an honest lie and when I 789 00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:29,870 went to see the movie I thought I might 790 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:31,760 see myself but I just ended up on the 791 00:32:37,930 --> 00:32:34,370 cutting room floor but uh well the best 792 00:32:39,250 --> 00:32:37,940 of us um hate it it's great you mean 793 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:39,260 wonderful movie and and it just sort of 794 00:32:44,770 --> 00:32:42,110 shows you you know one person has 795 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:44,780 accomplished and so sometimes you know I 796 00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:46,490 think we get a bit something to get it 797 00:32:49,810 --> 00:32:47,929 down and go you know there's just this 798 00:32:52,390 --> 00:32:49,820 lone voice of skepticism and what 799 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:52,400 different well then look at Simon look 800 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:54,890 at Randy you know these are individuals 801 00:32:58,990 --> 00:32:56,510 or a talented individuals nevertheless 802 00:33:00,700 --> 00:32:59,000 but just one person making a huge 803 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:00,710 difference so yeah impressed by that the 804 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:02,570 good thinking society it's yeah it's 805 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:04,610 good and we certainly are good friends 806 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:06,049 with a good thinking society here the 807 00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:08,570 skeptic salmon we promote them whenever 808 00:33:11,740 --> 00:33:10,190 we can in fact Michael Marshall is a 809 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:11,750 regular guest on the show and I'm always 810 00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:13,730 delighted to have him before we wrap up 811 00:33:18,159 --> 00:33:16,880 Richard and I'll add this link to the to 812 00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,169 the show notes although it's easy to 813 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:20,720 find folks if you want to hear a very 814 00:33:26,890 --> 00:33:24,010 pleasant chat with Richard Wiseman in 815 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:26,900 2012 i visited edinburgh and Richard and 816 00:33:31,539 --> 00:33:29,330 I had a stroll along the streets and 817 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:31,549 down by the river and we just had a chat 818 00:33:35,529 --> 00:33:33,530 about skepticism in general and all 819 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:35,539 sorts of things now that's on the 820 00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:39,890 skeptic zone number episode number 176 821 00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:41,990 and that's from March 2012 and that was 822 00:33:46,899 --> 00:33:44,030 a very pleasant afternoon I spent with 823 00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:46,909 you wandering around Edinburgh it was 824 00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:48,409 very nice i remember that was it all 825 00:33:53,649 --> 00:33:50,390 those he cuz that almost swell 34 years 826 00:33:55,779 --> 00:33:53,659 ago my goodness yeah it's I know I I had 827 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:55,789 to remind myself I had to look it up and 828 00:33:58,960 --> 00:33:57,650 see exactly when that was it doesn't 829 00:34:01,570 --> 00:33:58,970 seem like that long ago but that was a 830 00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:01,580 very doesn't yeah and I and I was very 831 00:34:07,149 --> 00:34:04,960 pleased that visit to I also spoke at 832 00:34:09,310 --> 00:34:07,159 skeptics in the pub I think in Edinburgh 833 00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:09,320 which was very good was a big thrill and 834 00:34:14,109 --> 00:34:11,030 then you and I I think subsequent will 835 00:34:15,609 --> 00:34:14,119 he went down to Manchester for QED yes 836 00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,619 qet is great which of course you know 837 00:34:19,810 --> 00:34:17,599 Marsh who spoke about earlier on the 838 00:34:21,550 --> 00:34:19,820 good thinking society helps run QED so 839 00:34:22,780 --> 00:34:21,560 yeah and again another example of a 840 00:34:24,970 --> 00:34:22,790 fairly small group of people I think 841 00:34:27,310 --> 00:34:24,980 about six of them run this 842 00:34:28,810 --> 00:34:27,320 skeptics convention which is probably 843 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:28,820 the certainly the best skeptical event 844 00:34:33,609 --> 00:34:32,540 in the UK you know and just just amazing 845 00:34:35,889 --> 00:34:33,619 what people can do and they put their 846 00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:35,899 minds to it yes and if there's any 847 00:34:41,290 --> 00:34:38,840 airline out there which I can suck up to 848 00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:41,300 Qantas hello british airways left hand 849 00:34:46,450 --> 00:34:44,000 so i don't care bulgarian air if you 850 00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:46,460 want to get me a tickets to go to QED i 851 00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:47,990 will certainly speak highly of your 852 00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:50,720 airline mm-hmm you could you could you 853 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:53,750 can you boat it go get you just a couple 854 00:34:57,910 --> 00:34:55,490 of yeah I've seen this or rowing boats 855 00:34:59,470 --> 00:34:57,920 and those people oh it can't be that far 856 00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,480 you could just you could just come 857 00:35:03,609 --> 00:35:02,000 around somewhere and and just um yeah 858 00:35:06,970 --> 00:35:03,619 just poke the whole thing I could and 859 00:35:09,970 --> 00:35:06,980 and I the exercise I could gain doing 860 00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:09,980 that would let me m feast out at QED I 861 00:35:13,870 --> 00:35:12,230 think that's a very good idea I think so 862 00:35:15,490 --> 00:35:13,880 I if you set up a Kickstarter from that 863 00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:15,500 I think that's giving a lot of support 864 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:21,350 that's all I'm saying I think no doubt 865 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:24,050 no doubt Richard how can people catch up 866 00:35:29,230 --> 00:35:25,910 with your work where can they go where 867 00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:29,240 can a visit they can I guess come on 868 00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:31,640 twitter at richard wiseman on twitter I 869 00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:33,830 post lots of things there they can look 870 00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:36,230 at my website Richard Wiseman com they 871 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:38,540 can look at my videos on YouTube with a 872 00:35:42,250 --> 00:35:40,609 quick ecology channel or they can come 873 00:35:43,930 --> 00:35:42,260 along and see me live which is my 874 00:35:45,849 --> 00:35:43,940 favorite thing for them to do come say 875 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:45,859 hello afterwards so I give talks all 876 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:47,210 over the place and I always post them on 877 00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:50,450 Twitter so um yeah come along that's the 878 00:35:54,130 --> 00:35:51,920 that's the ticket folks especially a 879 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:54,140 follow richard on on twitter please 880 00:36:00,040 --> 00:35:56,510 subscribe to quirkology on youtube 881 00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:00,050 because you will be delighted absolutely 882 00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:01,670 delighted and quite mystified by the 883 00:36:06,930 --> 00:36:03,470 videos he puts up and when you see the 884 00:36:10,270 --> 00:36:06,940 solution to the problems you'll go oh 885 00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:10,280 yeah which is my reaction Richard 886 00:36:18,190 --> 00:36:15,140 Richard Wi-Fi sly people I have hope you 887 00:36:20,590 --> 00:36:18,200 sense it too like wonderin or wait 888 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:20,600 that's what i meant i'm sorry i see i 889 00:36:25,570 --> 00:36:23,090 see it's just like that's the australian 890 00:36:27,340 --> 00:36:25,580 way of expressing delight and war in one 891 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:27,350 day I see it's not that I felt 892 00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,560 disappointment oh no he's done lacking 893 00:36:34,299 --> 00:36:32,720 he's right he's been that he knows is 894 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:34,309 that 895 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:37,249 you stupid Richard Wiseman all the way 896 00:36:41,890 --> 00:36:39,049 from beautiful Edinburgh thank you very 897 00:37:15,130 --> 00:36:41,900 much a pleasure thank you very much for 898 00:37:17,979 --> 00:37:15,140 inviting me dr. Harriet hall md no one 899 00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:17,989 to thousands as the skeptic a retired 900 00:37:23,229 --> 00:37:20,390 family physician and former Air Force 901 00:37:25,179 --> 00:37:23,239 flight surgeon she writes about medicine 902 00:37:28,749 --> 00:37:25,189 so called complementary and alternative 903 00:37:32,109 --> 00:37:28,759 medicine science hi curry and critical 904 00:37:34,359 --> 00:37:32,119 thinking Harriet now has a free course a 905 00:37:37,410 --> 00:37:34,369 series of 10 video lectures on science 906 00:37:40,179 --> 00:37:37,420 based medicine and alternative medicine 907 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:40,189 the videos and an accompanying course 908 00:37:46,509 --> 00:37:42,410 guide can be found by following the link 909 00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:46,519 at skeptic info or by visiting web 910 00:37:55,269 --> 00:37:51,049 Randy's org slash educational modules 911 00:37:57,999 --> 00:37:55,279 dot HTML topics covered in the series 912 00:38:01,140 --> 00:37:58,009 are science-based medicine vs. 913 00:38:04,529 --> 00:38:01,150 evidence-based medicine what is cam 914 00:38:07,749 --> 00:38:04,539 chiropractic acupuncture homeopathy 915 00:38:09,849 --> 00:38:07,759 naturopathy and herbal medicine energy 916 00:38:13,029 --> 00:38:09,859 medicine miscellaneous alternatives 917 00:38:16,319 --> 00:38:13,039 pitfalls in research and science-based 918 00:38:19,089 --> 00:38:16,329 medicine in the media and politics 919 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:19,099 Harriet covers each topic in a matter of 920 00:38:35,470 --> 00:38:21,650 fact no-nonsense way that shorter 921 00:38:40,579 --> 00:38:37,910 welcome to a week in science from our 922 00:38:42,769 --> 00:38:40,589 iOS bringing you the science you need to 923 00:38:44,779 --> 00:38:42,779 know ever wanted to take a stroll on the 924 00:38:46,579 --> 00:38:44,789 surface of Mars may be analyzed some 925 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:46,589 rock formations well thanks to a 926 00:38:50,359 --> 00:38:48,690 collaboration between NASA and Microsoft 927 00:39:01,099 --> 00:38:50,369 scientists are getting the chance to do 928 00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:01,109 just that although it's about 55 million 929 00:39:05,390 --> 00:39:03,480 kilometers away at best and at times as 930 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:05,400 far as 400 million kilometers away 931 00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:08,010 thanks to virtual reality the surface of 932 00:39:12,349 --> 00:39:10,020 Mars has never been closer as long as 933 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:12,359 you've got the right accessories strapon 934 00:39:16,579 --> 00:39:14,970 a microsoft hololens headset and fire up 935 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:16,589 their on-site software and you'll be 936 00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:19,200 transported to another world using data 937 00:39:22,549 --> 00:39:21,240 from the Curiosity rover the virtual 938 00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:22,559 reality system creates a 939 00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:24,630 three-dimensional explorable planetary 940 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:27,480 surface scientists can behave just like 941 00:39:31,309 --> 00:39:29,970 geologists do here on earth walking 942 00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:31,319 around an object to get a better view 943 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:33,510 crouching down to inspect it from a new 944 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:35,609 angle and understanding the spatial 945 00:39:42,049 --> 00:39:37,529 relationships between objects in a more 946 00:39:43,579 --> 00:39:42,059 natural human way researchers can also 947 00:39:44,930 --> 00:39:43,589 do things like target an object by 948 00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:44,940 looking at it and use gesture-based 949 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:47,460 menus to program the rover the 950 00:39:51,769 --> 00:39:49,170 technology can bring together scientists 951 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:51,779 from all over the world researchers from 952 00:39:54,859 --> 00:39:53,130 different countries can both wear 953 00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:54,869 headsets and access the same mars 954 00:39:59,450 --> 00:39:56,730 surface program communicating directly 955 00:40:01,549 --> 00:39:59,460 through the system NASA's next steps for 956 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:01,559 exploring Mars are to send an orbiter in 957 00:40:07,099 --> 00:40:04,170 2016 participate in the European Space 958 00:40:10,279 --> 00:40:07,109 Agency's rover mission in 2018 and send 959 00:40:13,420 --> 00:40:10,289 that iron Rover in 2020 and now for fast 960 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:13,430 facts about the red planet 961 00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,130 Mars is about half the size of Earth but 962 00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:18,319 the land area of both planets is about 963 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:20,420 the same depending on planetary 964 00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:23,210 positions launch speed and fuel load it 965 00:40:28,030 --> 00:40:26,240 takes between 150 and 300 days the 966 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:28,040 spacecraft to travel from Earth to Mars 967 00:40:33,970 --> 00:40:30,770 the first Mars rover the Pathfinder 968 00:40:36,180 --> 00:40:33,980 Surgenor landed in 1997 the spirit and 969 00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:36,190 the opportunity arrived in 2004 and 970 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:38,089 curiosity has been patrolling the 971 00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:41,450 surface since 2012 curiosity has a 972 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:43,550 tendency to take selfies but relies on 973 00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:45,530 its friends back on earth to digitally 974 00:40:49,809 --> 00:40:47,270 remove the extendable arm that takes the 975 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:49,819 snap that's it for this week in science 976 00:40:56,380 --> 00:40:51,890 for more information on exploring Mars 977 00:40:59,319 --> 00:40:56,390 go to the rirs website RI aus org dot a 978 00:41:01,870 --> 00:40:59,329 you follow us on twitter at our iOS and 979 00:41:22,940 --> 00:41:01,880 like us on Facebook I'm Casey Harrigan 980 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:24,920 be reasonable it's a podcast in the 981 00:41:29,359 --> 00:41:27,210 merseyside skeptics society hosted by 982 00:41:31,099 --> 00:41:29,369 Michael Marshall in each monthly 983 00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:31,109 interview we'll examine belief from 984 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:33,270 outside of the mainstream exploring how 985 00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:34,890 those views are constructed and what 986 00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:36,660 evidence people feel supports their case 987 00:41:42,589 --> 00:41:40,020 on the latest episode I speak with dr. 988 00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:42,599 pol burn a pediatrician and prominent 989 00:41:49,099 --> 00:41:46,380 campaigner against organ donation you 990 00:41:52,490 --> 00:41:49,109 use the word market and yes it is market 991 00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:52,500 because the organ transplant industry is 992 00:41:58,760 --> 00:41:56,040 a multi-billion dollar industry and it 993 00:42:01,520 --> 00:41:58,770 all depends on getting healthy organs 994 00:42:04,099 --> 00:42:01,530 and the only place you get healthy 995 00:42:06,170 --> 00:42:04,109 organs from living persons hey what Paul 996 00:42:08,060 --> 00:42:06,180 has to say as well as downloading back 997 00:42:11,089 --> 00:42:08,070 issues of the show by going to 998 00:42:13,010 --> 00:42:11,099 Merseyside skeptics WK forward slash 999 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:13,020 podcasts or by searching for be 1000 00:42:31,420 --> 00:42:28,020 here's my not spooky action at a 1001 00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:34,220 well a cub reporter may not here on the 1002 00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:36,060 scene now with the man who has been a 1003 00:42:40,130 --> 00:42:38,430 stick in the craw of a crutch of 1004 00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:40,140 something of the authorities over the 1005 00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:42,480 years it's ken harvey he's down on 1006 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:43,980 everything really he's best known for 1007 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:46,170 his anti crackery work around australia 1008 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:48,090 but a bit of an activist and you've been 1009 00:42:51,710 --> 00:42:49,770 out there on behalf of the Friends of 1010 00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:51,720 science in medicine doing a few things 1011 00:42:54,830 --> 00:42:53,790 over the last well couple of months you 1012 00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:54,840 want to fill us in on what you been up 1013 00:43:00,860 --> 00:42:58,260 to ken yeah basically we've been having 1014 00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:00,870 got chiropractors certainly the crazy 1015 00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:03,180 proportion of chiropractors that believe 1016 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:07,110 that or or complaints in mankind are 1017 00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:10,050 related to vertebral subluxation it's 1018 00:43:15,110 --> 00:43:12,420 the original doctrine of Parma and 1019 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:15,120 therefore they believe that cracking was 1020 00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:18,810 spline I can cure anything now just 1021 00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:20,880 before you go any further can up look 1022 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:22,680 like I've been confused over the years 1023 00:43:28,070 --> 00:43:25,770 between a homeopathy and naturopathy and 1024 00:43:29,990 --> 00:43:28,080 all those sort of things either some 1025 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:30,000 chiropractors that are on the level and 1026 00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:32,610 do regular what you would call science 1027 00:43:38,090 --> 00:43:35,640 space medicine oh yes indeed and there's 1028 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:38,100 a split quite distinct flit in the 1029 00:43:43,070 --> 00:43:39,890 Australian profession at least where 1030 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:43,080 there's two new organizations as split 1031 00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:46,170 off from the original one but two new 1032 00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:48,390 guys to your organization's are 1033 00:43:54,860 --> 00:43:52,160 basically support musculoskeletal 1034 00:43:58,220 --> 00:43:54,870 treatments only for chiropractors 1035 00:44:00,530 --> 00:43:58,230 they've come out supporting the British 1036 00:44:04,490 --> 00:44:00,540 Chiropractic Association statement that 1037 00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:04,500 says subluxation is historical myth has 1038 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:07,110 got no place in terms of treating 1039 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:10,410 diseases today so it's good then and in 1040 00:44:14,570 --> 00:44:12,090 terms of the university's Murdoch 1041 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:14,580 University in Western Australia this 1042 00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:17,160 school of chiropractic again is very 1043 00:44:21,950 --> 00:44:19,470 science-based evidence-based 1044 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:21,960 musculoskeletal treatment only and on 1045 00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:24,810 their website they're very clear we do 1046 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:27,390 not treat her Milly infections and other 1047 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:29,730 things of that sort of our colleagues do 1048 00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:32,490 and where does it sit statistically if 1049 00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:35,640 you go to any chiropractor or what 1050 00:44:39,350 --> 00:44:37,710 does the chances is it like 5050 how 1051 00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:39,360 they split over this issue with the 1052 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:43,390 spine well I don't know the numbers some 1053 00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:46,210 ties regrettably from looking at 1054 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:48,609 websites and putting in complaints I 1055 00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:51,490 still suspect that probably the majority 1056 00:44:56,940 --> 00:44:54,670 well certainly at least 5050 of 1057 00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:56,950 chiropractors are the crazy variety 1058 00:45:01,950 --> 00:44:59,680 because there's hundreds of websites out 1059 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:01,960 there promoting chiropractic for 1060 00:45:07,890 --> 00:45:04,690 everything from curing childhood 1061 00:45:09,930 --> 00:45:07,900 diseases to preventing cesarean sections 1062 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:09,940 in pregnant women as long as you have 1063 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:12,730 regular chiropractic adjustments or 1064 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:14,410 through your pregnancy there'll be less 1065 00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:17,170 cesarean sections and more rapid labor 1066 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:19,569 etc so there's a lot of crazies out 1067 00:45:23,370 --> 00:45:21,490 there that they are the same people who 1068 00:45:27,089 --> 00:45:23,380 do the balloon up the nose trick are 1069 00:45:29,460 --> 00:45:27,099 they I haven't heard of balloons up 1070 00:45:32,759 --> 00:45:29,470 knows i think you know chiropractors may 1071 00:45:35,930 --> 00:45:32,769 like manipulating backs and necks hello 1072 00:45:39,089 --> 00:45:35,940 certainly manipulating nexus not without 1073 00:45:42,029 --> 00:45:39,099 hesitancy tropes from vertebral artery 1074 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:42,039 two sections so i certainly would never 1075 00:45:47,059 --> 00:45:44,650 let one near my neck i think in the 1076 00:45:49,230 --> 00:45:47,069 evidence useful in terms of sore backs 1077 00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:49,240 chiropractors can be as good as physios 1078 00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:51,430 or anyone else probably not fair and 1079 00:45:55,980 --> 00:45:52,990 I've got no problem with them treasure 1080 00:45:58,620 --> 00:45:55,990 sore backs I look at Ken just on a you 1081 00:46:00,240 --> 00:45:58,630 know an awareness or is there an 1082 00:46:02,309 --> 00:46:00,250 actually a sort of clear and present 1083 00:46:04,380 --> 00:46:02,319 danger from them I guess it's the old 1084 00:46:06,990 --> 00:46:04,390 question what harm are they doing in the 1085 00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:07,000 community by misrepresenting really know 1086 00:46:11,819 --> 00:46:09,910 the way you should cure people yeah I 1087 00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:11,829 think there's two problems I mean 1088 00:46:17,339 --> 00:46:14,740 there's there's misrepresentation of 1089 00:46:20,309 --> 00:46:17,349 their ability to diagnose and cure which 1090 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:20,319 can lead people into a series of 1091 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:22,930 treatments would you not get it do the 1092 00:46:28,349 --> 00:46:25,450 underlying illness any good at all which 1093 00:46:30,809 --> 00:46:28,359 means that it can progress and so they 1094 00:46:32,789 --> 00:46:30,819 can delay patients can delay getting 1095 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:32,799 more evidence-based treatment of course 1096 00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:34,930 sometimes with serious diseases that can 1097 00:46:40,890 --> 00:46:38,049 be quite a concern so one of that one of 1098 00:46:45,809 --> 00:46:40,900 the problems is is just dis laid what 1099 00:46:48,690 --> 00:46:45,819 mislaid delayed proper diagnosis and 1100 00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:48,700 treatment the other concern of course is 1101 00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:51,250 that they rip people off that I mean if 1102 00:46:55,590 --> 00:46:53,860 they're signing you up for 1103 00:46:58,260 --> 00:46:55,600 that chiropractic manipulation in 1104 00:47:00,420 --> 00:46:58,270 pregnancy or again many of them come up 1105 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:00,430 with the fact that your births terribly 1106 00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:02,710 traumatic for spine of a baby and 1107 00:47:08,010 --> 00:47:05,200 therefore all babies need regular 1108 00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:08,020 chiropractic manipulation to stop these 1109 00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:10,630 terrible subluxations in the first 12 18 1110 00:47:17,790 --> 00:47:13,950 months of life that just is ripping off 1111 00:47:19,770 --> 00:47:17,800 patients money unnecessarily and 1112 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:19,780 occasionally and I think to be to be 1113 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:23,290 fair it's rare chiropractic can cause 1114 00:47:27,630 --> 00:47:25,570 real problems i've mentioned strokes 1115 00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:27,640 from vertebral artery dissection where 1116 00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:30,670 necks are manipulated and the arteries 1117 00:47:36,570 --> 00:47:34,240 can be either feared web now there's 1118 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:36,580 dispute over how common areas is 1119 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:39,010 probably fairly rare but it certainly 1120 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:42,130 does happen mmm okay and what do you 1121 00:47:45,090 --> 00:47:43,690 mean what can you do about this i mean 1122 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:45,100 you know that people to ring you know 1123 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:48,250 who to get on to about this well for 1124 00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:51,250 many years my colleagues and I have been 1125 00:47:56,610 --> 00:47:53,140 putting complaints about these things 1126 00:48:00,060 --> 00:47:56,620 five years ago chiropractors came under 1127 00:48:02,220 --> 00:48:00,070 the national regulatory system and there 1128 00:48:03,690 --> 00:48:02,230 is for the registered health 1129 00:48:07,140 --> 00:48:03,700 practitioners and and that includes 1130 00:48:10,110 --> 00:48:07,150 doctors nurses pharmacists etc and 1131 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:10,120 chiropractors got into that system so 1132 00:48:14,820 --> 00:48:13,210 they come under the national law that 1133 00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:14,830 governs registered practitioners which 1134 00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:17,230 has got very clear advertising 1135 00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:20,950 provisions of our shop not advertised in 1136 00:48:26,430 --> 00:48:23,110 a misleading or deceptive manner thou 1137 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:26,440 shalt not use testimonials thou shalt 1138 00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:29,410 not encourage unnecessary use of health 1139 00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:31,720 services and you can hear from what i've 1140 00:48:36,750 --> 00:48:33,550 said that we believe there's breaches of 1141 00:48:39,570 --> 00:48:36,760 all of those consistently and the first 1142 00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:39,580 two or three years of the national 1143 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:41,710 scheme was set up the chiropractic board 1144 00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:43,570 said they wanted to educate people about 1145 00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:46,060 the responsibilities and that was their 1146 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:49,000 approach so you'd send in a complaint 1147 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:52,690 and you'd hear nothing more but if you 1148 00:48:58,860 --> 00:48:55,890 queried them they were educating people 1149 00:49:02,400 --> 00:48:58,870 five years has now gone on and certainly 1150 00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:02,410 over the last few years we've put in a 1151 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:05,500 lot more complaints again the approach 1152 00:49:10,020 --> 00:49:07,410 has just been it 1153 00:49:11,850 --> 00:49:10,030 you know in more and more newsletters 1154 00:49:14,850 --> 00:49:11,860 and come out from the chiropractic board 1155 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:14,860 guys you should be evidence-based but 1156 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:17,410 they've been very nonspecific may have 1157 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:20,890 not said thou shalt not do yea thou 1158 00:49:24,540 --> 00:49:22,450 shalt not manipulate children for 1159 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:24,550 childhood illnesses they have not said 1160 00:49:29,610 --> 00:49:26,890 you should not manipulate pregnant women 1161 00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:29,620 to prevent it's a short labor or prevent 1162 00:49:34,100 --> 00:49:31,420 caesarean sections because there's no 1163 00:49:37,110 --> 00:49:34,110 evidence for it they haven't actually 1164 00:49:38,940 --> 00:49:37,120 produced need to public determinations 1165 00:49:40,980 --> 00:49:38,950 on a complaint screen and has been 1166 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:40,990 hundreds of complaints pudding they 1167 00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:44,410 haven't actually analyzed them to say ok 1168 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:47,110 there are consistently certain practices 1169 00:49:51,330 --> 00:49:49,210 going on but are not evidence-based and 1170 00:49:53,820 --> 00:49:51,340 we should tell people don't do it 1171 00:49:58,920 --> 00:49:53,830 they've never told people don't do it 1172 00:50:00,660 --> 00:49:58,930 and so again it's this year or in a lot 1173 00:50:03,210 --> 00:50:00,670 in middle of last year my colleagues and 1174 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:03,220 I started talking to the actual CD 1175 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:04,690 australian competition and consumer 1176 00:50:11,540 --> 00:50:08,110 Authority because for agency and because 1177 00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:11,550 they have got also powers under a 1178 00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:15,040 National Consumer Law to prosecute for 1179 00:50:18,690 --> 00:50:16,480 misleading and deceptive and 1180 00:50:21,540 --> 00:50:18,700 unconscionable conduct and certainly my 1181 00:50:23,730 --> 00:50:21,550 argument is that many chiropractors have 1182 00:50:26,220 --> 00:50:23,740 got unconscionable conduct and again 1183 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:26,230 talking to vh people see first of all 1184 00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:28,570 they want to talk to the board another 1185 00:50:33,450 --> 00:50:30,910 12 months went by then we thought out 1186 00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:33,460 about 200 or more complaints possible 1187 00:50:37,530 --> 00:50:35,440 complaints we would put in 10 good 1188 00:50:39,930 --> 00:50:37,540 representative ones which we did last 1189 00:50:42,660 --> 00:50:39,940 August they were acknowledged but heard 1190 00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:42,670 nothing more and so early this year we 1191 00:50:47,370 --> 00:50:45,280 looked at what had happened to those 10 1192 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:47,380 representative complaints which involved 1193 00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:49,330 a large number of chiropractors because 1194 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:51,640 it was 10 clicks large number of 1195 00:50:57,870 --> 00:50:54,490 chiropractors more than 60 sort of 1196 00:51:00,600 --> 00:50:57,880 claims made we felt breached the law and 1197 00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:00,610 what we found at the ten clinics only 1198 00:51:06,210 --> 00:51:03,250 one had taken off from all the claims 1199 00:51:07,950 --> 00:51:06,220 that we felt were inappropriate another 1200 00:51:10,620 --> 00:51:07,960 one seemed to have disappeared but in 1201 00:51:12,510 --> 00:51:10,630 fact that set up a new website and 1202 00:51:14,070 --> 00:51:12,520 making the same claims it's not an 1203 00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:14,080 uncommon trick and of all the other 1204 00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,320 claims we judged but something like 1205 00:51:23,170 --> 00:51:20,000 sixty two percent was still non 1206 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:23,180 so yes the car for a keyboard we believe 1207 00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,570 hand written how to list abra mr. alien 1208 00:51:30,250 --> 00:51:28,640 practitioners health very have written 1209 00:51:32,230 --> 00:51:30,260 to these guys saying hey here's a 1210 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:32,240 complaint but nothing has happened there 1211 00:51:38,020 --> 00:51:34,250 not much it happened Olivia sheer we 1212 00:51:40,180 --> 00:51:38,030 went public and hit the press medical 1213 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:40,190 journals Australia inside and do daily 1214 00:51:45,790 --> 00:51:42,890 opinion editorial in the Fairfax press 1215 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:45,800 the age no Sydney Morning Herald and got 1216 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:48,410 a large amount of media attention which 1217 00:51:53,410 --> 00:51:51,170 all of a sudden has stimulated the 1218 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:53,420 chiropractic board and the Australian 1219 00:51:57,310 --> 00:51:54,770 health practitioners regulatory 1220 00:51:59,740 --> 00:51:57,320 authority to suddenly start wanting tell 1221 00:52:02,680 --> 00:51:59,750 the conferences and meetings to see what 1222 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:02,690 the problem is so where'd the 1223 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:04,250 politicians sit with this is this the 1224 00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:05,330 kind of thing where you want to get 1225 00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:07,190 politicians involved or is this a touchy 1226 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:09,200 one where they feel all we been not get 1227 00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:11,330 involved in cases makes people who are 1228 00:52:16,450 --> 00:52:14,240 in favor of it not like us well indeed 1229 00:52:19,090 --> 00:52:16,460 the National Registration system was set 1230 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:19,100 up by the council Australian 1231 00:52:24,010 --> 00:52:21,290 Government's Health Council which is all 1232 00:52:26,290 --> 00:52:24,020 state and federal territory ministers 1233 00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:26,300 which obviously is a bit of us on dog's 1234 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:28,880 breakfast but but the system the 1235 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:30,410 registration system and a complaint 1236 00:52:36,460 --> 00:52:32,690 system is responsible to the Australian 1237 00:52:39,850 --> 00:52:36,470 health and to treat ministers and so yes 1238 00:52:42,670 --> 00:52:39,860 we have written and many come many 1239 00:52:44,770 --> 00:52:42,680 civica sorry a civil society 1240 00:52:47,020 --> 00:52:44,780 organizations such as consumers health 1241 00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:47,030 forum choice is drunk and choose 1242 00:52:51,100 --> 00:52:48,800 association friends of science and 1243 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:51,110 medicine have written to the co egg 1244 00:52:56,590 --> 00:52:53,210 health council were demanding that 1245 00:52:59,140 --> 00:52:56,600 something be done now again that's 1246 00:53:00,880 --> 00:52:59,150 within the last week or two but yes we 1247 00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:00,890 have taken it into the political arena 1248 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:02,720 and it'll be interesting to see what 1249 00:53:08,590 --> 00:53:05,810 response we get yes do you think there's 1250 00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:08,600 votes in the medical reform of 1251 00:53:12,610 --> 00:53:10,790 alternative and complementary medicine 1252 00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:12,620 because if she not just watching last 1253 00:53:17,230 --> 00:53:15,680 night there's program from PBS France 1254 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:17,240 from a comic broadcasting system in 1255 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:19,490 America on their crazy system of 1256 00:53:24,430 --> 00:53:22,010 supplements and the dangers that that 1257 00:53:28,210 --> 00:53:24,440 lack of regulation causes I think 1258 00:53:29,260 --> 00:53:28,220 patients when they know but there is 1259 00:53:31,180 --> 00:53:29,270 both 1260 00:53:33,820 --> 00:53:31,190 medicines and like complementary 1261 00:53:35,950 --> 00:53:33,830 medicines that have never been evaluated 1262 00:53:38,110 --> 00:53:35,960 to see if they work which claims are 1263 00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:38,120 being made which lack evidence and when 1264 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:39,440 they find that there are practitioners 1265 00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:42,530 such as chiropractors naturopaths homie 1266 00:53:48,730 --> 00:53:45,920 perhaps doing the same making claims 1267 00:53:50,590 --> 00:53:48,740 that can't be validated people get 1268 00:53:53,110 --> 00:53:50,600 pissed off I mean they're as they should 1269 00:53:56,980 --> 00:53:53,120 the problem is getting it out there 1270 00:53:59,350 --> 00:53:56,990 because most people don't go for 1271 00:54:01,930 --> 00:53:59,360 evidence based assessment of the health 1272 00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:01,940 practitioners it's over here over the 1273 00:54:05,890 --> 00:54:04,400 back fence you know I've got to say Kim 1274 00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:05,900 I'm actually completely wacky on the 1275 00:54:12,580 --> 00:54:10,160 ethereal right now no well a figure has 1276 00:54:14,350 --> 00:54:12,590 finally been taken off the market oh 1277 00:54:17,350 --> 00:54:14,360 right that's it I'm gonna charge more 1278 00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,360 for it but the problem again I oh that 1279 00:54:21,370 --> 00:54:19,760 is the need for consumer education which 1280 00:54:23,650 --> 00:54:21,380 again is the role of consumer 1281 00:54:26,260 --> 00:54:23,660 organizations choice consumers health 1282 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:26,270 forum etc I mean we've got to let people 1283 00:54:31,090 --> 00:54:29,330 know and again the national press and 1284 00:54:33,820 --> 00:54:31,100 the media has got an important role here 1285 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:33,830 we've got it and that is craziness out 1286 00:54:37,930 --> 00:54:35,930 there and again the press in the media's 1287 00:54:42,580 --> 00:54:37,940 have been pretty good on this um 1288 00:54:44,980 --> 00:54:42,590 recently they abc-tv's taken up some 1289 00:54:47,260 --> 00:54:44,990 other even channel 10 projects taking us 1290 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:47,270 up there's been I think good media 1291 00:54:52,270 --> 00:54:50,210 attention all of which helps concentrate 1292 00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:52,280 the mind of politicians I mean my 1293 00:54:56,500 --> 00:54:54,650 experiences politicians don't give a 1294 00:54:59,110 --> 00:54:56,510 bugger about an area like paper in a 1295 00:55:01,570 --> 00:54:59,120 medical journal of Australia but if 1296 00:55:04,030 --> 00:55:01,580 consumer organizations and national 1297 00:55:06,850 --> 00:55:04,040 media starts pressuring them that's 1298 00:55:08,350 --> 00:55:06,860 voters and I'll do something about it so 1299 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:08,360 I'm feeling confident something might 1300 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:10,490 happen this time around ken of what i 1301 00:55:13,540 --> 00:55:12,050 find this normal use and it's certainly 1302 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:13,550 the case i think with the 1303 00:55:16,660 --> 00:55:15,290 anti-vaccination people is it isn't so 1304 00:55:18,850 --> 00:55:16,670 much that they're suspicious at the 1305 00:55:21,250 --> 00:55:18,860 science they're suspicious of the big 1306 00:55:23,140 --> 00:55:21,260 business and the authority figures do 1307 00:55:25,570 --> 00:55:23,150 you think that's true well because 1308 00:55:27,970 --> 00:55:25,580 that's terribly ironic because yes I 1309 00:55:30,970 --> 00:55:27,980 mean clearly there is suspicion a big 1310 00:55:33,220 --> 00:55:30,980 pharma big business and there is the 1311 00:55:37,410 --> 00:55:33,230 hope that small business and little 1312 00:55:38,750 --> 00:55:37,420 farmer is is fine and green and ethical 1313 00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:38,760 there is 1314 00:55:44,060 --> 00:55:41,250 no difference if I in my experience 1315 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:44,070 there are charlatans and rip off 1316 00:55:50,330 --> 00:55:47,490 merchants in both areas and yes you know 1317 00:55:53,060 --> 00:55:50,340 there are have been and continue to be 1318 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:53,070 big problems with big farmer in terms of 1319 00:56:00,890 --> 00:55:56,330 them you know censoring negative results 1320 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:00,900 misleading trials etc etc but equally 1321 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:03,930 well in the so called complementary 1322 00:56:10,190 --> 00:56:07,410 medicine space there's the same thing 1323 00:56:12,490 --> 00:56:10,200 and with practitioners I mean well 1324 00:56:14,660 --> 00:56:12,500 certainly about the facts are 1325 00:56:17,930 --> 00:56:14,670 chiropractors for example are running at 1326 00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:17,940 three times the number of complaints per 1327 00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:20,280 thousand chiropractors for advertising 1328 00:56:25,820 --> 00:56:23,160 violations as the next communist which 1329 00:56:28,490 --> 00:56:25,830 is dentists and medicos and pharmacists 1330 00:56:30,590 --> 00:56:28,500 are way behind in terms of you know 1331 00:56:32,890 --> 00:56:30,600 complaints per thousand those 1332 00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:32,900 chiropractors are right up there right 1333 00:56:38,570 --> 00:56:35,910 leading the pack way out in front with 1334 00:56:40,610 --> 00:56:38,580 advertising complaints but people don't 1335 00:56:42,290 --> 00:56:40,620 know about it though what about the 1336 00:56:45,590 --> 00:56:42,300 Reiki touch feelers how are they going 1337 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:45,600 oh well that's the other area of course 1338 00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:48,810 which unfortunately you know there was a 1339 00:56:54,170 --> 00:56:50,850 review by the National Health and 1340 00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:54,180 Medical Research Council into looking at 1341 00:56:59,360 --> 00:56:56,880 the evidence base of a number of 1342 00:57:02,360 --> 00:56:59,370 alternative and natural therapies you 1343 00:57:05,210 --> 00:57:02,370 know homeopathy naturopathy etc and that 1344 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:05,220 was stimulated by the past Labor 1345 00:57:09,470 --> 00:57:06,810 government who sort of were a bit 1346 00:57:12,310 --> 00:57:09,480 concerned about the escalating private 1347 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:12,320 health insurance rebate costs because 1348 00:57:17,780 --> 00:57:15,810 complementary therapies are covered by a 1349 00:57:20,860 --> 00:57:17,790 number of private health insurance funds 1350 00:57:24,380 --> 00:57:20,870 and government generally in my belief 1351 00:57:26,060 --> 00:57:24,390 provide some rebates and encourages 1352 00:57:28,940 --> 00:57:26,070 people there was a look at the evidence 1353 00:57:32,770 --> 00:57:28,950 base and have Yaffe opposes the first 1354 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:32,780 cab off the rank no evidence clearly for 1355 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:35,490 homeopathy and you did it turned out 1356 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:36,690 there's no evidence for any of the 1357 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:39,330 others either at least on the review is 1358 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:41,490 done by the natural health and sorry the 1359 00:57:45,260 --> 00:57:42,570 National Health and Medical Research 1360 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:45,270 Council that should have led immediately 1361 00:57:50,740 --> 00:57:48,570 to a decision to put the kibosh on the 1362 00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:50,750 rebate for not evidence-based therapies 1363 00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:52,480 but this is where 1364 00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:54,910 again politics comes in that was set up 1365 00:57:59,400 --> 00:57:57,130 by the previous Labor government the 1366 00:58:01,980 --> 00:57:59,410 current Liberal government minister 1367 00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:01,990 wasn't too sure about this inquiry set 1368 00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:04,720 up by a labor Health Minister by 1369 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:06,160 definition don't want anything to do 1370 00:58:11,220 --> 00:58:09,250 with that and hasn't actually followed 1371 00:58:13,530 --> 00:58:11,230 through it's all too difficult to 1372 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:13,540 actually stop rebate surprise health 1373 00:58:17,609 --> 00:58:15,130 insurance for non evidence-based 1374 00:58:20,370 --> 00:58:17,619 therapies according to the minister 1375 00:58:23,390 --> 00:58:20,380 Susan lay now get on my own belief is 1376 00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:23,400 that's because the industry pressures 1377 00:58:28,170 --> 00:58:26,230 severe on her too so say let's keep this 1378 00:58:30,270 --> 00:58:28,180 going and let's keep us in the manner in 1379 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:30,280 which were accustomed so you know 1380 00:58:35,790 --> 00:58:32,650 evidence is one thing regrettably action 1381 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:35,800 as a nun so what can we all do about it 1382 00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:37,210 how can we help out with this if the 1383 00:58:40,020 --> 00:58:38,680 skeptic out there is listening they got 1384 00:58:41,580 --> 00:58:40,030 their blood boiling and they want to do 1385 00:58:44,430 --> 00:58:41,590 something which they do can you're the 1386 00:58:46,500 --> 00:58:44,440 expert on doing something well I think 1387 00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:46,510 what we've learnt is that it is 1388 00:58:51,450 --> 00:58:48,730 worthwhile putting in complaints it can 1389 00:58:54,060 --> 00:58:51,460 be an unrewarding experience you know 1390 00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:54,070 you may never hear what happens but they 1391 00:59:02,160 --> 00:58:58,000 do get logged and people do use them to 1392 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:02,170 bring pressure to bear and so yes my 1393 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:04,930 advice is if you see something fishy or 1394 00:59:09,540 --> 00:59:07,690 it's too good to be true then put in a 1395 00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:09,550 complaint if you don't know how to put 1396 00:59:13,050 --> 00:59:11,470 in a complaint been getting touch with 1397 00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:13,060 you know skeptics Australia friends of 1398 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:16,240 science and medicine um email at your 1399 00:59:21,090 --> 00:59:18,490 concerns and we will put in a complaint 1400 00:59:23,430 --> 00:59:21,100 or will help you to put in one we've got 1401 00:59:25,710 --> 00:59:23,440 to get people to actually be aware in 1402 00:59:29,220 --> 00:59:25,720 their rights to question and be 1403 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:29,230 skeptical and be cynical and pass that 1404 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:31,330 on to the regulatory authorities because 1405 00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:33,970 if people just don't do anything then 1406 00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:36,670 the regulatory authorities say oh well 1407 00:59:40,770 --> 00:59:39,220 no complaints everything's fine they 1408 00:59:42,300 --> 00:59:40,780 certainly don't do any monitoring 1409 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:42,310 themselves well it would be very easy 1410 00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:46,450 for them to do so so yeah be an activist 1411 00:59:50,790 --> 00:59:49,359 putting complaints get in touch with 1412 00:59:54,030 --> 00:59:50,800 friends of science and medicine 1413 00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:54,040 Australian skeptics etc and we can help 1414 00:59:58,530 --> 00:59:56,710 great Ken and what what is the best 1415 01:00:01,050 --> 00:59:58,540 website to get to find out more about 1416 01:00:02,430 --> 01:00:01,060 the Friends of science and medicine well 1417 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:02,440 again if you google all friends of 1418 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:03,970 science and medicine 1419 01:00:09,420 --> 01:00:06,010 you will get there if you google 1420 01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:09,430 Australian skeptics you'll get some good 1421 01:00:14,010 --> 01:00:12,160 contact details great thank you dr. ken 1422 01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:14,020 harvey and rock on get out there and 1423 01:00:37,090 --> 01:00:15,599 complain about something today people 1424 01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:39,440 astronomy cast it takes a fact space 1425 01:00:43,220 --> 01:00:41,490 journey through the cosmos as it offers 1426 01:00:45,890 --> 01:00:43,230 listeners weekly discussions on 1427 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:45,900 astronomical topics ranging from planets 1428 01:00:51,260 --> 01:00:48,810 to cosmology hosted by Fraser Cain of 1429 01:00:52,130 --> 01:00:51,270 Universe Today and myself dr. Pamela gay 1430 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:52,140 of southern illinois university 1431 01:00:56,660 --> 01:00:54,810 edwardsville this show brings the 1432 01:00:59,090 --> 01:00:56,670 questions of an avid astronomy lover 1433 01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,100 directly to an astronomer together 1434 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:01,200 Fraser and I explore what is known and 1435 01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:02,730 being discovered about the universe 1436 01:01:07,580 --> 01:01:05,490 around us join us each week as we take a 1437 01:01:24,250 --> 01:01:07,590 fact space journey through the cosmos at 1438 01:01:28,460 --> 01:01:26,690 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1439 01:01:30,559 --> 01:01:28,470 zone and for people who have been 1440 01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:30,569 listening to the skeptic zone for many 1441 01:01:37,970 --> 01:01:34,319 years now he'll of course be well aware 1442 01:01:41,329 --> 01:01:37,980 of Fred the cat well I am very sorry to 1443 01:01:43,009 --> 01:01:41,339 say that Fred died just after the last 1444 01:01:46,099 --> 01:01:43,019 episode of the skeptic zone went out to 1445 01:01:49,359 --> 01:01:46,109 where he died in his sleep here at home 1446 01:01:53,150 --> 01:01:49,369 he was perfectly happy the day before 1447 01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:53,160 doing his normal things sleeping a lot 1448 01:02:00,380 --> 01:01:56,640 looking for water food generally being a 1449 01:02:03,620 --> 01:02:00,390 good cat fred was a found kitten my 1450 01:02:07,579 --> 01:02:03,630 sister found Fred on a fence post in the 1451 01:02:10,490 --> 01:02:07,589 year 2000 poor little lost half starved 1452 01:02:13,630 --> 01:02:10,500 kitten well that's how he ended up here 1453 01:02:16,910 --> 01:02:13,640 he was good company he had two pretty 1454 01:02:20,359 --> 01:02:16,920 major events happen in his life the 1455 01:02:23,769 --> 01:02:20,369 first one was that about all six years 1456 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:23,779 ago he was attacked by a rottweiler and 1457 01:02:29,630 --> 01:02:26,490 poor old Fred had big puncture wounds in 1458 01:02:32,059 --> 01:02:29,640 him horrible experience for everybody 1459 01:02:34,759 --> 01:02:32,069 he'd recovered good old Fred he did 1460 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:34,769 recover no broken bones luckily the 1461 01:02:40,579 --> 01:02:37,650 other one was that about dual three 1462 01:02:43,579 --> 01:02:40,589 years ago he developed a giant tumor in 1463 01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:43,589 his back it was massive the vet was 1464 01:02:50,329 --> 01:02:46,890 quite surprised and Fred had to go under 1465 01:02:53,180 --> 01:02:50,339 go to operations to fix all that up but 1466 01:02:55,579 --> 01:02:53,190 survived it he did very sorry to not 1467 01:02:58,099 --> 01:02:55,589 have Fred here at my feet wise I record 1468 01:02:59,749 --> 01:02:58,109 this very sorry not to have a dell and 1469 01:03:02,240 --> 01:02:59,759 some of you may remember Adele who was 1470 01:03:06,259 --> 01:03:02,250 the other cat she died about three years 1471 01:03:08,509 --> 01:03:06,269 ago rest assured for the most part Fred 1472 01:03:11,269 --> 01:03:08,519 had a pretty damn good life and a long 1473 01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:11,279 life too so Fred thanks for all the 1474 01:03:17,870 --> 01:03:13,680 company and thanks for always being 1475 01:03:19,730 --> 01:03:17,880 there and we will miss you Oh Deary me 1476 01:03:21,710 --> 01:03:19,740 anyway for this week this is Richard 1477 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:21,720 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1478 01:03:32,190 --> 01:03:28,440 you've been listening to the skeptics 1479 01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:32,200 own podcast visit our website at wwc a 1480 01:03:38,550 --> 01:03:35,110 petting zoo TV for contacts an archive 1481 01:03:41,250 --> 01:03:38,560 of all episodes since 2008 and our 1482 01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:41,260 online store please support the skeptic 1483 01:03:46,350 --> 01:03:43,170 zone by following us on twitter at 1484 01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:46,360 skeptic zone liking us on facebook and 1485 01:03:52,140 --> 01:03:49,990 leaving a review on iTunes you can also 1486 01:03:55,310 --> 01:03:52,150 show your support by subscribing via 1487 01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:55,320 paypal for as little as 99 cents a week 1488 01:03:59,730 --> 01:03:58,090 the skeptic zone is an independent 1489 01:04:02,160 --> 01:03:59,740 production the views and opinions 1490 01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:02,170 expressed on the skeptic zone and not